Batman and Big Ideas

[kokopelle]

wulfwalker and I saw the latest Batman movie this past weekend. The movie got me thinking about the purposes of order and chaos. Sometimes these are confused with good and evil, but I think the polarities of law/chaos and good/evil are only coincidentally related. The difference between these polarities, at least in my estimation, is that law and chaos do rely on the balancing influence of each other in order for systems to continue. Law and chaos is part of both the human equation and that of the larger world. The good/evil paradigm, again in my estimation, is largely part and parcel of the human world. Hmmmm...

Comments

[chimerae.livejournal.com]

VERY cool image

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I thought so... it seemed appropriate for the topic.

[chimerae.livejournal.com]

My experience is that real evil is rare but the way people push their awareness and responsiblity for it away causes it to accrue in spots where it twists goodnessness into form around the thin shape of evil. Desire is a great example.

My experience is that order and chaos are different than law and chaos.

I think most of what we humans perceive, legislate, and enforce in both law and order is a byproduct of our bilateral symmetry. In the case of Order, this is is a fine thing since ongoing perceiving requires us to discern from many different perspectives over time.

I personally think part of the place where evil creeps in systemically is when we confuse the appropriate arm of cultural evolution found in the creation and enforcement of law with goodness and order.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Very very true... order is not the same as the law. I am guilty of mixing metaphors. One of the things I like about shamanism is that it promotes the natural order of life and not the laws of man.

The desiring can pass a law that they will must live forever, but order will have them perish in time. Immortality is a fascinating topic underwhich to study order, law, good and evil. The 'right' of the powerful meets the pained seduction of vampires...

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

One of my favorite movies has a great line of dialogue:

"One of the great ironies of the universe is that Good would be totally impotent without the contrast of Evil."

(If you know the movie and character, I'll give you a virtual cookie)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I cheated and looked up the answer... I could not find the entire quote, but I did find "Good would be totally impotent, without the contrast of evil" credited to a 1982 movie. I won't give away the title, but I will say that Carolinus is credited with the words.

I don't know if I agree with the quote. It could be that I don't grasp what 'impotent' is supposed to mean here. "Without power" does not work for me, as in, "Good would be without power without the contrast of Evil". However, if this is about definition and perception (and the action that can follow), than I agree that shades of good are better measured against shades of evil.

Those who wish to 'do good' can spring to action when the contrast of evil gives them a target. However, I believe that man is woefully incompetent when it comes to discerning a true evil from the illusion of self defined grasping desires and fears.

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

It's an awesome movie. :)

For me, "impotent" means, in that sense, "weakened" or "without equal or conflict." I prefer total balance, as in traditional yin/yang philosophy, so while I'd love to wish that there were never any evil in the world, I would think that you'd need it, because how can there be one thing without the other? If everyone were "good" then why are we good? What's the contrast? Even if it's within the self?

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Here is another quote from the movie:

Carolinus: For as evil is a part of all things, evil is a part of magic.

The idea of everyone being good is laughable, at least for humans. We largely (IMHO) define our world by contrasts, and in the end somebody or something would be less good, and hence evil. This is the fault I see in some New Age concepts. How can there be complete light and total love? Perhaps this could happen if the perceptions of such are shifted away from human standards/understanding, but then we would be something else other than human.

Total balance kinda scares me. Does that I will have a saint living as one neighbor and a cannibal serial killer as the other neighbor? Ack! I instead believe in moderation and being in harmony with my surroundings. This might equate to a ying/yang that shifts constantly, rarely complete in balance but always appropriate for the eternal moment.

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

Hmmm....

I like the idea of moderation, never really thought about it quite like that. I like the idea that each one of us is capable of both good and bad, but that each force is in moderation, with some days leaning toward pleasant, some leaning toward unpleasant. I mean, I prefer to be "good" but gods know I can't be all the time. So I suppose you're right, that total balance is probably not so attainable, but rather moderation and harmony, a shifting yin/yang, appropriate for certain moments.

Say there were two cosmic immortal superheroes, one of Light and one of Dark. And in order to maintain the balance of the universe, the Light hero had to keep a constant vigil on the Dark hero, who wants to spread constant chaos and dissent and distress. Would it be better to have the Light hero consistently "on top" or should there be an active balance between the two?

[greensh.livejournal.com]

My question would be this... what would be more harmonious for the society that the immortal superheroes 'serve'? Artists can be avatars of chaos and dissent. They rail against the polarity of rigid order. Artists breathe life into a society with their unique creations, but they are ill suited to build machines that have components that are compatible across the whole of society. Engineers instead design the equipment used by everyone in a society.

The law and order must also walk the line between 'light' and 'dark'. Cookie cutter punishments are not fair any more than random punishments (imagine spinning the wheel of punishment, with death on one end and a slap on the wrist on the other) would be.

I maintain that a measurement of harmony is important to determine moderation. Here is a final example. I eat a meal every six hours while I am awake. This is harmonious to my body. A person with incredibly high metabolism may have to eat every two hours. This is harmonious to them, but this more frequent schedule would be "dark" and distressing to me.

Good stuff for mind noodling...

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

Excellent points! Great food for thought.
I will ponder all of this.