The Tolerance of the Minority(?)

[kokopelle]

Some days my hopeful interior pokes through my cynical exterior. I say "people are human" even while I hope they can evolve past a level of eye scratching and groin kicking. The latter was marginally confirmed in response my blog posting on nonfluffypagans.

Here's where I see the disconnect between the "could-be" and "is"” of human nature. I have this dream that minorities learn something about compassion and understanding because they are a minority. Pagans are a much abused spiritual minority. We are told that we are either in league or duped by Satan. We are told that we're both damned and dangerous. Is anything learned from this? Perhaps. Is the mindset of the minority different from the mindset of the majority? I don't think so. Allow me to explain. My posting on nonfluffypagans was about having respect/tolerance for those who believe differently from you. I dangled the target of otherkins as part of the message. Well, I might have as well been dangling raw meat in front of ravenous dogs. Immediately the hue of "they're crazy", "they're living in anime" and "it's a mental illness" (paraphrasing!!!) was raised by some people. Others talked about past bad experiences with otherkin claimers. The more negative tone was, "they don't deserve my respect/consideration". Other people offered a conciliatory message, but this response were marginalized. The vocal majority voiced an emotional charged detracting reaction. The number of responses far outnumbered the typical number of responses for a blog.

What's up with this? Here's my theory. Upon reflection I realized that minorities have their own prejudices and "sub-minorities" open to ridicule. There seems to be the human desire to have somebody not good enough to fully belong even to the minority. Some examples are blacks who are not black enough and gays who are not gay enough. Light-colored blacks and bi-sexuals become the persecuted minorities within a minority. The stories I've heard from the targets of these communities' abuse equal or top the actions of the greater society to these minorities.

In my heart I hoped that Pagans were different. I guess I thought, "this is a spiritual path, there has to be some wisdom gained from being pagan". The resulting comments from my blog entry were most 'unspiritual', disheartening, and very very human. So mote it be. Time to put that cynical exterior back on display!

Comments

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

Next time, if you're looking for a positive, warm and fuzzy response, I recomend you look elsewhere other than NFP. We are folks who pride ourselves on the limitations we've placed on their world, and a logcal approach to our spirituality.

People have a knee-jerk reaction to this topic simply because they instinctively can detect that someone's trying to sell them a pile of hooey. I really couldn't care less if someone immagines themselves the reincarnation of a dragon-- but attempting to pass that delusion off as some sort of spirituality is a step too far for me.

As for hoping for a more open minded response: Being pagan doesn't mean that I need to accept every cockamame concept that comes my way, and I'm extremely resistant to anyone making claims that are simply too fantastic or ungrounded. In a sub-culture where there are many different perspectives, a line must be drawn to deliniate where their spirituality ends and someone's twinky navel-gazing starts.

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

It didn't sound to me like he was looking for a "positive, warm and fuzzy response". It seemed more like a realization that even in the pagan community "All animals are Equal, some animals are more equal than Others". go to a Ceremonial Magic board and start talking about being able to "see" or "read" energy.. they will just as quickly jump on the same "cockaminie concept, twinky naval gazing" bandwagon.

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

I think it might come down to less a judgement amongst simmilar things and more of a deliniation of difference. We're not comparing apples and apples here. Otherkin identification has little/nothing to do with what most people believe at NFP-- yet it's an axe that seems to be constantly ground there.

Same as the lifestyle choices of polyamory and fethishism, really. All are brought up as if they're on-topic, but the connections are tenuious at best.

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

So.. maybe a better question is..Why do was as pagans knee-jerk and condemn/ridicule other systems of belief(admittedly not mainstream or sometimes not well delineated) within our community, when that very action is one that we reject so fiercely in mundania?

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I follow your train of thought.

If I read that right, you're asking me what keeps a pagan who makes this kind of judgement call from being a hypocrate?

The answer is simple: Consistency. The Pagan in question believes what they believe, often to the excusion of other beliefs. If their system doesn't have space for reborn dragons, fae or animae characters, then they're not being hypocritical when they criticize someone's belief in those things.

[lupini.livejournal.com]

So you admit to having had a knee-jerk reaction and you weren't responding to the post itself. That you were reacting based on your triggers, which may or may not have actually had something to do with greensh's post...?

"We are folks who pride ourselves on the limitations we've placed on their world (my bolding), and a logcal approach to our spirituality."

Ok, now *that* is a scary statement. Sounds like fundamentalism (of any tradition) to me.

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

Because we make definitions about what does and does not exist, we're fundimentalist?

I don't believe in everything. My reality is defined by the limitations at the edges. Living in a world where all things are possible is simply escapist at best and delusional at worst.

Dogmatic? Perhaps. Fundimentalist? Please. You're just trying to rile me.

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

Oh. That should have said, "We've placed on our world." Got my pronouns mixed up.

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

"Living in a world where all things are possible is simply escapist at best and delusional at worst" so you don't believe that the more you learn/experience, the more you can see? that each experience opens a door or window into a myriad of other possibilities or experiences? Abilities that can be manifested have to first be believed to be possible (IMO)

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

I believe one should be skeptical about all things.

You simply can't start a logical argument on the basis that all things are true. One must posit limits before one can test them.

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

maybe not that all things are true. how about possible?

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

You're splitting hairs. One cannot start a logical argument that is vauge and universal. If you can find specific and universal arguments... then you're cooking with some real philosophic gas.

Start with the concrete facts and work from there.

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

maybe that doesn't souind right. what I am fumbling my way to saying is: my reality is almost organic, in the sense that it is continuously shifting/changing as my preconceptions or prejudices have been eliminated. now that does not mean they have not been replaced by new and improved preconceptions/prejudices. IMO I think that is part of our nature as humans that we continue to try to define our reality and that of our surroundings. that we do it with limitations or finite barriers is again part of being human. beliefs that I hold now, maybe 10 years ago or 5 years ago would not have existed or been accepted. I think our experiences and interactions help to define us in the NOW. the ability to say/think: well, I don't think I could do/believe that, BUT it might be possible; keeps the window of opportunity open just a crack, enough to maybe embrace that belief at a later time and place. I am not saying I haven't had my bullshit meter pegged a time or two, but my particular knee-jerk is online role players who never leave that world and profess to be in the NOW, thier characters with all the associated powers and abilitites.

[lupini.livejournal.com]

That helps to clarify. I probably should have asked if that was intentional or not.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

What's your own definition of the words dogmatic and fundamental?

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

Fundimental: A literal adherence to a strict set of principles.

That, I am not.

Dogma: A belief system that excludes all other belief systems.

I'm that... somewhat. Although, I'm actually quite open to other religions, and since the definition is about exclusion, it doesn't really apply to me.

Isn't learning fun?

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Thrilling!

Knowing is half the battle!

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Yep!

[greensh.livejournal.com]

There are no cups of tea involved in some of the reactions. Derision or mocking are the main courses instead. Perhaps the cold logic mentioned needs to meet some hard reality. I think these guys need to meet a real otherkin a dark ally. Maybe a bit of *koff*StrigoiVii*koff*?

[greensh.livejournal.com]

LOL... you are my favorite S.W.

[lupini.livejournal.com]

Personal Rule: I refuse to join any group that has a name starting with "non..."

If the focus/subject/name can only be described by saying what it isn't, then there is trouble afoot (and the founders are lazy). Besides, I think it just brings some sort of negativity in right at the beginning.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Good point. I believe an original intent is filtering out of interpersonal ego driven realities (i.e. "I am a Thunder Cat, Space Ghost, etc"). The resulting serious discussion would educate the members. The actual result seems to be the inflation of other ego driven realities. Human nature perhaps. Communism had a similar history.

[iskender.livejournal.com]

All too often, minorities seek to harass other groups in the exact same way in which they were harassed. One of the most common power dynamics.

Individuals may gain wisdom from the minority experience. Groups seldom do.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Thank you for actually reading the rest of the message. I have some shelved books on group dynamics. Its time to drag them out to educate myself.

Does the sentence "We are folks who pride ourselves on the limitations we've placed on their world, and a logical approach to our spirituality" strike you as having a disfunction? Is it just me seeing a disconnect of concepts?

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

Hey there. Don't take my word for it... I'm not an expert.

However, I do stand by the premise that we ARE people who certainly have our bullshit meters engaged when we approach spirituality. I can't go about believing in everything, so instead, I take painstaking care in how far I'm willing to let my faith take me.

If people didn't think that way, we'd still be living on a flat world with the sun revolving around us. Fortunately for us all, great minds were able to question the dispairity of what they witnessed and what they were being told.

A healthy level of skepticisim is all I'm endorsing-- and it's certainly needed to survive NFP.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Thick skin is what one needs to survive LJ NFP. (smile) In all fairness, this was part of the groups disclaimer.

What is your impression about the charter/purpose of the LJ NFP group? How does the group benefit its members?

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

It mostly focuses on the schollarship end of paganasim. Folks like swisscelt are focused on the cultural roots of paganisim.

The problem lies in the fact that in most other pagan groups, there isn't a limit to what's acceptable and what's fracked up-- So in the end you get completely invented Hogwarts style fantasy rather than work that has anthropologial weight.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I noticed that the NFP group was useful for people looking for source/research material.

Question for you... what is your position on the reconstructionalism aspect of paganism? Is there enough 'original' paganism around to build a viable belief structure, or is this even necessary if the 'new' paganism stands up to scholarly scrutiny?

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

I'm of the opinion that there really isn't enough of the original tradition (we're talking the pagan proto-religion of northern Europe) that's survived the onset of Judaeo Christian faith, to base a faith system on.

Reconstructionisim is a valid path as long as there's anthropologic evidence to support their traditions. Oddisean Wicca, for example, is researched backwards and forwards both on an occult (Gardnarian) and scientific way.

I notice that many of my colleuges are pulling from traditions that still exist outside of western culture (such as Voodoo), and that seems to work for them.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Good answer. Even though I don't (fully) agree where you're coming from, I respect your position.

My own spiritual path, that of the "shamanic" in general and (newbie) Western Cherokee specifically, has an amazingly mixed background. The world of Shamanism is very rich and diverse. Each indigenous culture has it's own rich beliefs and practices. There are many differences between these local derivations. That said, there is also a core of general beliefs that are shared across the multitude. The result is a form of "modern" shamanism that informs and enriches the nonindigenous person. Most of what I use is from a broad overview of the shamanic path. The only "pure" shamanic teachings would be indigenously specific. I don’t have the qualification to practice these in a way that has spiritual/anthropological integrity with the practices. Very few people do. We in the Western world stand outside of those teachings. It is only in glimpses that we see the nuts-n-bolts of the indigenous.

What are your feelings on the challenges of the shamanic path that I've outlined above?

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

Shamanism is certainly one of those nice, documented and living traditions. I twinge a bit at anyone who mixes traditions between tribes simply because it doesn't particularly honor either set of spirits or ancestors well.

I mean... if I chose to worship spirits of both Mohawk and Mahican tribes, I'd be pretty much insulting everyone. They didn't get along in flesh... why force them together in spirit?

You're lucky because there are people in most native cultures that are more than willing to share the history, stories and traditions of their people-- I certainly recomend you focus on the most regional of yours and start from there.

[iskender.livejournal.com]

It's tribal conflict like that that makes Tengriism so attractive. Worship the sky and your ancestors--and the spirits of a place if you like. The Native Americans were mostly settled. Nomadic shamanism makes a better port with modern life.

Of course, when it's a matter of blood, that changes things.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Ah! You've made a light click on for me. It's the old debate about the nature of magick. I won't drag this to NFP, as I'm sure it's been hashed over time and time again. So, instead I will post my own humor oriented reply on my own blog (http://greensh.livejournal.com/44764.html)

[iskender.livejournal.com]

No problem. Least I can do is read what you say before I comment.

I don't know. I'd need more context to be completely fair, but just from reading that, the immediate question that comes to mind is "What's more important--your pride or your logical approach?" Truly logical people are like ascetics. They tear down limitations and take things to logical ends, free of comfort or conditioning. Likewise, if it's a faith-based group, how much logic are they willing to practice? Only so much, I'd say.

Personally, my whole take? I laugh at furries and otherkin (and I indeed know there's a difference, but I still wonder if the source is the same) and yet I don't laugh at all pagans. I don't laugh at people who light candles, pray for shit, all that. I don't laugh at people who invoke the Lord and Lady, Brigid, Diana, whatever. Some of them I do mock. I'm not sure where the line is drawn.

But one does wonder about people who believe in magic who express disdain for those who think themselves lycanthropes.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

The disdain comes from lycanthropes not fitting into their reality.

It may be disdain on my own part, but I see the extreme conjunction of logic and faith not being beneficial. You spoke of moralistic people being destructive in your own blog. With enough logic, I can proclaim that there is one book that has everything I need to know. All other sources of information are at the least suspect. At the worst, other sources of information are tainted. Logic would inform me the parameters of my life based on the one book. If it is written than so it is. The irony is that my 'faith' would be strengthened by this logical devotion to a spiritual 'truth'. I could do almost anything to anyone. Be rude and disdainful? This is only the start! How about a little crusade to stir up the blood? (LOL)

Am I misusing any words here? Does this make sense to you?

[iskender.livejournal.com]

It makes sense to me. It is as you have said--logical means in pursuit of an illogical end, or based on illogical premises, are a way to disaster. I defy Godwin's Law, but look at the totalitarians. They mechanized and routinized everything, but their initial assumptions--whether racial superiority or the innate wisdom of an inner circle or segment of society--were hopelessly flawed. Most Nazi higher-ups were logical and mad at the same time.

If you're going to be logical, you need to re-evaluate your initial assumptions.

But on another note, you know I believe in one world. As sure as we all bleed and can all kill each other, we live in this one world. So lycanthropes are falsifiable, or at the very least unverifiable. You can't play the in-my-world-but-not-in-yours game. They either exist or they don't. But once you say that, then magic and a bunch of other things are also opened up to inquiry. I'll at least be consistent. I won't refuse the madness of others and protect my own.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I won't refuse the madness of others and protect my own.

Well said!

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

*grin* Well, I followed your Otherkin can of worms here to defend my position.

Yes, I'm a knee-jerk skeptic and I won't deny it. If you can offer me proof for a claim, I'll believe it. If you can't, then only logic can tell you which claims are the most likely to be nonsense. Admittedly I caution against either extreme - too much open-mindedness and you'll believe anything, too little and you'll believe nothing. Yes, I know, reason and moderation are very Apollonian virtues with which to judge an experience that is irrational by nature, but instinct comes into it too; after a while you kind of get a "feeling" that points out the most exaggerated or the most honest claims.

"Lycanthropes not fitting into their reality..." Physical shapeshifting? Show me! I'd love to see that. Lycanthropes in the sense in which it is used in Otherkin and Therianthrope communities? No, I daresay that does happen, just not to everyone who claims it does :) Short version of my Otherkin philosophy: I believe there are Otherkin within some definition of the word (hell, if we reincarnate, individuals who strongly identify with past lifetimes in some other body is statistically unlikely NOT to happen). I do not necessarily believe everyone identifying as such is one.

"There is one book that has everything I need to know..." Now, I love my books, but no. There is no one book that contains everything I need to know, and everything I want to know. Furthermore, not everything I need or want to know will be contained in a book at all. I love my books, I really do, but they have their limits...

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Hello! You are most welcome to visit. I've enjoyed our dialogue. If I get to hear more from you while you defend your position, than that's icing on the cake!

I did my own research on the otherkin thing. There are some very sincere and well spoken websites in defense/support of the otherkin phenomenon. These speak to the small X% operating out of the furry/anime arena. The other place my research took me was to consider vampires (http://greensh.livejournal.com/40750.html). Forget about the dress-up types. There is a psychic variety that takes themselves deadly serious, and IMO other should too. They are very private also (and not in a silly way). It is very possible that these people wouldn't even call themselves "otherkin".

My "one book" reference was a tongue-in-cheek reference to The Bible. I didn't say the book name or state the adherents because I merely wanted to point out the extreme, but possible, human behavior possible. Don't worry about it if the shoe doesn’t fit!

Shapeshifting is an interesting topic. It is near to my heart as I am a student of the shamanic path. Do I claim to shape shift? No. I have a past blog article (http://greensh.livejournal.com/15736.html) in which I voice my opinion on the topic. The blog entry includes some really good feedback from a LJ friend.

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Awww, kitty icon! :D

I caught the Bible thing, I felt the need to elaborate because I am very much an adherent of the "Read, read, read!" philosophy...

Re vampires, I have been accused of "energy draining" on various occasions, mostly times when I was troubled/upset by something and needed emotional support. I guess it's a fine line between consensual energy draining from someone who's being supportive when you're in a bad way, and constant parasitic feeding. And then there's other examples, like bands onstage during a gig...there can be so much energy there I start feeling vaguely high, gods know how the band members must feel if they're at all sensitive (or even if they aren't)....

I think I draw the line via, 1) consensuality, 2) frequency of offense, 3) amount of energy drawn (siphoning the "excess" a large crowd produces via its mood seems less dubious to me, because I've noticed that often, that kind of energy doesn't belong so much to the individual members of the group as to the "atmosphere" of the gathering in general).

Shapeshifting...well, I've yet to find anyone serious claiming that their physical, material body shifts, but I do believe that one's mental projection of self can and does. For example, I often visualize myself with wings, and sometimes get the attendant phantom limb sensations, but for me embracing that was a conscious choice because wings are symbolic to me of certain character traits and ways of life that I desire. Similarly I have been told I can be "cat-like" to such a degree that one friend has a tendency to scratch me behind my ears. While I often feel divorced from my perceptions of "humanity" on average (said perceptions being very cynical), that was never enough for me to identify as something other than human - much as I'd occasionally like to.

I guess that for me is the main stumbling block - I can believe that certain souls can have (or shift into) "non-human frequencies" and I can believe that someone shifted into a crow (as per the post you linked to), but some of the more extreme (ie teenage and badly-spelled) claims of Otherness reek to me of a type of escapism I try very hard not to fall into. If I decided to call myself Otherkin, it would reek to me of self-delusion.

I am not suggesting all claims of Otherness have this motivation. I have run into a few Otherkin online who's claims I was inclined to respect (definition of respect in a positive sense ;)) and I do in fact believe that shapeshifting in a non-material sense is possible. It's just that claims of Otherness are so fraught with metaphysical and psychological complications that I will be more likely to cross-examine them.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I have to warn you... I am a voracious stealer of cute kitty icons!

On good authority, I've been told that the difference between the casual psychic drinker and the psychic vampire is that the vampire must feed to survive. With this need, the probability of it always being consensual is improbable. I suppose the frequency and amount is up to the individual. For your consideration and personal verification.

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Be my guest, a friend made it for me out of a kittypic on one of those kitty-loving internet sites that sometimes feel like a tribute to Bast - I later saw another person use it on LJ too, so nothing plagiarized :P

I've never worried that I was a psychic vampire, these instances were extremely situational - I would be surprised if people DIDN'T find it draining when someone cries on them :P

provides access

[(Anonymous)]

Wow this was doubtlessly one of the most effective posts I've had the chance to view on the subject so far. I do not know where you gather up all your info but up! I'm gong to send a few folks your way to take a look at this post.

Re: provides access

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Cool... it has been quite a few years since I wrote that post. Since then I've become (more) fully comfortable with the idea that pagans are wonderfully human as anybody else. (smile)

painter 11

[(Anonymous)]

Great post Jeff. Can't be more excited to see where you guys end up another 12 months from now.