Documented and Living. Enough?

[kokopelle]

I've been pondering why a purely scientific approach to paganism doesn’t feel right to me. the_caveat has provided me a clue. I asked him how the modern practitioner of shamanism was to cope with the indigenous nature of the anthropological aspects of the path. The response I received was:

"Shamanism is certainly one of those nice, documented and living traditions"

Ah. This is it. The scientific, anthropological person would see it this way. It makes sense. The catch is that this is not enough. To illustrate my point I will make up a story. No living or dead people are referenced in this story.

Scene: Mutt and Jeff, two scientific, logical male pagans, are carefully working off of an anthropologically verified Book of Shadows. The ritual for the night is 'Drawing Down the Moon'. Now denuded and at the conclusion of the working, the two are wondering why the ritual did not work.

Mutt: I don't understand. We did everything exactly how the books said. The objects were exactly placed. We said all the words that were in the book. Nothing happened. I just don't understand.

Jeff: Yep. The Moon doesn’t look like it got any closer to us. I took 'before' and 'after pictures'. While it has shifted 23.5 degrees NNW in the sky, the diameter of the moon, a reliable measure of distance from the Earth, has not changed.

Mutt: The ritual does work for other people. I have full documentation that we did it the right way. The placement of the objects is perfect. We said every word correctly. This past week I watched the video tape of that ritual we recorded enough times to know I didn't do anything wrong. And I have to tell you, the HPS at that ritual said the moon was drawn down for her! I traced her lineage back to Z Budapest, so she was the real thing! Verified source material from a vetted person. And yet, it didn't work for us.

Jeff: You know Mutt, I was just thinking about something. What if the Moon had moved closer to the Earth? Wouldn't that have caused problems with tides and such? That might be a bad thing. Hmmm... maybe it's a good thing that the ritual didn't work. How about we move onto the next one on our list?

Mutt: (bending down, finding paper in the pocket of his robe) This says that we are going to do the 'Five Fold Kiss' ritual next. Well, let's get started.

Jeff: I hope we get this five fold ritual to work!!!

LOL... anyway. The point of my humor is that there is more to the personal experience of religion than just the documentation. IMO the real stuff happens outside of the documentation. To borrow an analogy, the map is not the journey and the path is not the destination. The real magick happens in a place of unseen goddesses, talking trees, and may, just maybe, otherkins!

While I seem to be making a point at the expense of logical pagans, the situation illustrated by Mutt and Jeff is very much what the non-native shamanic practitioner faces. Yes, the practices are anthropologically documented. There are indigenous people "living" the traditions. Neither helps the modern seeker to truly connect with the true path. The magick is difficult to capture. The ecstatic nature of the shamanic path makes this even more so. In reality, the shamanic seeker moves beyond the documented into their own realms of ecstatic experience. The results cannot be documented. The outcome cannot be compared to a historical record for validation. The knowledge that it is valid is the experience itself. In the shamanic path there are enough people have similar experiences to reach a consensus of experience.

Now I invoke that word. If there are enough people having similar otherkin experiences to reach a consensus of experience, I suppose this leaves the logical scientific method at a loss, the kid sitting in the den while the adults have their meal in the dining room. The outsider has the right to say, "I don't understand or comprehend". The outsider is out-of-bounds, or perhaps merely rude, to say "it is only a delusional state". The shamanic path, with all of it's cross-world phenomenons, can be viewed as being equally delusional. For me, in my own experience, it is just fine.

Comments

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Sorry for potential incoherency, sleep loss....

I think this post is particularly directed towards die-hard skeptics like me, particularly after I have so prominently exhibited said skepticism in our last few discussions. Ironically enough, I would like to say that I think you're right.

How on earth does that reconcile with all my other statements and attitudes? Well, first of all, I read a great deal, but when it comes to my own life and rituals I don't take an academic approach. They're rarely structured or planned, and I work almost entirely on instinct to such a degree that it can often be a hindrance in and of itself. Secondly and most importantly, when I'm deliberately trying to approach something that will often make no sense to logic as we know it, I suspend logic.

So in summary...I may have a certain knee-jerk response to Otherkin (ie, believing that some claims are real but not all of them will be)...*claps hands* I do believe in fairies! I do believe in fairies! ;)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I added two more paragraphs, wanting to voice how the humor skit tied into my own shamanic path.

I continued to invoke the word 'otherkin'. Hopefully it has lost a bit of its emotional knee-jerk energy. It is my belief that the best way to communicate with people is to get their attention. The word certainly got people’s attention. That is one of the reasons we do ritual. Some rituals include dramatic things. We want to get the attention of spirits/gods/etc. For a few, like yourself, the attempt got some good dialogue going and brain cells rubbing together. I know mine got a work-out!

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

I noticed that you were trolling for a reaction, but, to your credit, you did so a lot more rationally and less confrontationally than many people who are trying to provoke you into debate, and I did very much enjoy it, my life has been very remiss in proper intellectual or spiritual conversation. Whilst my attitudes can occasionally be a bit aggressive, I'd rather debate them than impose them :P

I'm starting to think I should really look into shamanism, in terms technique if not necessarily as a full path, given it seems very much about ecstatic experiences, and I've found those particularly rare and worthwhile. I believe the random word choice that occurred to me a few months ago was "seeking divine madness", although that's by no means a state I'd want to live in constantly.

Would it be too trite to say that logic and empiricism are each flawed without the other? :)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

The shamanic methods can be used without becoming an adherent to a specific shamanic path. The methods are not the sole property of any shamanic practice. For me, a shamanic understanding of the world brings me close to the apparently diverse worlds of new-age, neopaganism and holistic healing. I see shared methods and ideas in all.

Are logic (the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference) and empiricism (empirical method or practice) flawed without each other? I suppose, if you are stating that the empirical method will point out issues in the logic. IMO we humans have a wonderful ability to rationalize most anything. We tend to set up empirical methods that support our logical thinking. The result is a logic loop that closes in on itself.

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Empiricism points out flaws in logic sometimes, yes, but I prefer the inverse, wherein logic will evaluate the inferences drawn from empirical evidence. I know about the "logic loop", though. We are friends. I do recognize that it's my downside to my usual thought patterns....

So a question for you. Of the two extremes, which do you feel is the lesser of two evils - being so open to extrarational interpretations of phenomena that you succumb to suggestibility, or rationalizing them to such a degree that you dismiss a "true" (however the hell one defines that, whole 'nother kettle of fish) metaphysical experience? Note that I am aware the happy medium is preferable, but pan metron ariston is easier said than done....

As I understand it, shamanism isn't some monolithic institution, so I didn't imagine there was a One True Way to it...or so our ambiguous friend logic suggested, given I don't know much about it *grin* Any recommendations on where I'd want to start investigating?

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Answering your question... the happy medium is the preferred place. I believe there is the pagan saying, "everything in balance". This is similar to the US Native American concept of the Red Road (http://literacynet.org/lp/namericans/awareness.html). IMO the answer to finding balance is the acquisition of both experience and knowledge. The result, wisdom, allows the finding of the balance. I have to admit that I only found out your age from your MySpace page. This was after we had already tossed some topics back and forth. My reaction was, "this is interesting". I now know that you are gifted, perhaps by your reading, curiosity and natural openness, with a wisdom not typical of "your age". There are also older people who should be wiser than their years indicate. We are all on our own paths. There is an innocence in all of us because of this.

What to read? The shamanic world can be approached from both an anthropological view and an ecstatic view. Both are valid approaches and I would recommend that both be pursued to remain "in balance". The anthropological world is well explored in Mircea Eliade's book, "Shamanism, Archaic Techniques in Ecstasy (http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Mircea-Eliade/dp/0691017794)". This is a classic. The ecstatic world, from a South American perspective, is well explored in Michael Harner's book, "The Way of the Shaman (http://www.amazon.com/Way-Shaman-Michael-Harner/dp/0062503731/sr=1-1/qid=1169215263/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-4153126-8877441?ie=UTF8&s=books)". You will find reviews on each all over the internet.

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Uhuh, the happy medium is the preferred place, I was asking for your opinion of which extreme is less horrible, because I like putting people between utterly hypothetical rocks and hard places...heheh. And yes, "pan metron ariston", everything with limits, as inscribed on a wall at Delphi along with the classic "know thyself". I try for both, succeeding marginally better at the former than at the latter, because I have a fairly extreme personality predisposed to all kinds of excesses both fun and less fun...again, Aristotle would NOT be proud....

I like throwing my age at people, because the reactions tend to amuse. Even people who meet me in person peg me at 22-26 because of my behaviour. A good friend your age whom I met online when I was about 14 assumed I was in med school when I mentioned doing biology homework :P My age can be extrapolated from my birth date on LJ, btw, but I've noticed it's fairly safe to display because most people don't tend to bother with the math *grin* I'm fairly proud of whatever maturity may be attributed to me, narrowly escaping hubris through the acknowledgment that wisdom is an ongoing process :)

Ahh, Mircea Eliade. Familiar with who he was, though not read any of his work to date. Don't suppose any translations are making the rounds of the public domain yet? If my foggy mind is doing the math right, the original should be okay, but whilst my French is good, the original would be much harder than a translation.

To be fair, I think my need for anthropological balance regarding any religion which may be considered to have any roots whatsoever in primitivism or mystery religions has probably been fulfilled several times over by reading "The Golden Bough". In full. I'm a fast reader, but even that took a while...and the most insane thing is I followed it there from T.S. Eliot's notes to "The Waste Land" rather than from any pagan perspective. I scare myself sometimes....

I take it you like your Americas. Ixtlan, huh? Heheh. I've never read much about those pantheons or beliefs, I only have a rudimentary knowledge, should be fun.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

IMO both extremes are horrible if you live in either all the time. I'll tell you my interpretation of the Red Road. I first ran into the concept when I was looking at addictions. The Red Road allows for the extremes to exist. There is the dogmatically scientific and the irrationally improvable. Those on the Red Road are not held to either extreme. In fact, they are allowed to bounce around between them. The intention is to live, most of the time, in the semblance of the middle. The take of the Red Road on addictions said something like, "it's not OK to eat cake ALL the time and it's not human to expect people to eat NONE of the time. Eat your cake when you will but do so in healthy moderation!". This takes the craziness out of trying to live at either end of the spectrum.

The English translation of "Archaic Techniques in Ecstasy" has been around for a long time. I think my Amazon.com link pointed at such an edition. I don't know of any web editions.

It’s true that I've not delved into the European shamanism (i.e. Celtic, British, Germanic) much. Their the shamanism tends toward the "Druidic" flavor, and I’m not drawn to that pathway specifically. My path shamanic path is informed by Buddhism, Taoism, Mexican/Toltec shamanism (Carlos Castaneda), "New-Age" shamanism, White-Man Modern shamanism, South American shamanism (varying authors), and United States Native American shamanism (varying sources).

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

I try, but my background makes skepticism either. As for the Red Road on addiction...ehh, I'm a chain-smoker. However, I do manage to maintain in everything else I consume, including cake :) In all other respects though, altering your perception of reality depending on which aspect of it you are currently confronting sounds like a rather good idea - it reminds me of the different mindset I need to adopt when personally pursuing much of what falls into the "irrational" category.

If there's no web version and no (GASP! EVIL!) version on P2P, it'll be a while. Greece is not exactly occult-friendly, or even a good place to find an anthropological text that addresses the occult...especially if you'd much rather have it in English thankyou.

I actually quite like the (quasi) Druidic flavour, again through my admittedly limited personal experience with it. South American pre-Christian religions are one of the things I've been meaning to look into though. Buddhism and I...don't get along. My entire psyche has kind of been built around embracing passion and desire, and accomodating them in a healthy way, whereas from what I've read Buddhism tends to consider these a problem because they lead to suffering. Since we seem to be discussing much of our personal cosmologies, what's your take on this?

[greensh.livejournal.com]

The larger strain of Buddhism does embrace the "release of suffering is the answer" side of things. I am attracted more to the Zen Buddhist subset. This is a terribly practical/pragmatic path with a lot of "shamanic" wisdom (IMO!). There is also such a thing as Buddhist Shamanism. They get into demons and other really neat stuff.

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Heheh, I did hear that Buddhism is compatible with a lot of the non-exclusive religions (ie, generally not the Abrahamic ones). They do have a concept of either five or six parallel worlds into which one can get reincarnated, don't they? That allows for a lot of Otherworldly entities.

From what I remember of a book on Zen Buddhism specifically I read a few years ago, it involved a lot of the "release your anger...release your individuality...you are a ripple in a stream stuff", though. It could've just been the book mind you, but it gave me the general idea that Buddhism is neat stuff but not my sort of thing. I LIKE my personal ripple, thanks...I'm more into the "overcome the cause of the anger, deal with the fact that suffering the flip side of joy and learn from it" attitude. I'm not quite Nietzschean about it though - what doesn't kill me makes me stronger, but that doesn't mean I have to relish the fact that it happens.

Notice how sleep-loss takes exponential chunks out of any eloquence in my expression? I'm going to go have a nap now, but I imagine I'll be busily poking LJ for thought fodder when I rejoin the living, so feel free to go on providing it should you be so inclined :)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Feel free to drop me a message on MySpace. I'd be glad to forward you my e-mail that you can use for off-LJ questions/comments.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

My lovely gf says I have an evil and sneaky style of 'trolling'. I say in reply (with look of complete innocence, halo firmly in place), "WHO ME???" LOL.

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

*giggle* If it somehow ever manages to come up, do tell her I empathize, my boyfriend is a philosopher who recently got snarked on LJ for effectively repeating, "Yes, I understand that this is your position. WHY? Would you care to justify it?"

Evil and sneaky trolling is good, it tends to attract more intellectual reactions than most other flavours. I find stating my opinion tends to be enough.... :P Oh, yes, and my age. In a fair few discussions people have assumed that bringing up my age actually constitutes a counter-argument for my claims...heh.

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

oooh, yeah, the things I endure for love.....*heavy sigh*.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

WHO ME??? (adjusting halo!)

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Ooops, wrong clicky. Erm, to repeat:

"My path shamanic path is informed by Buddhism, Taoism, Mexican/Toltec shamanism (Carlos Castaneda), "New-Age" shamanism, White-Man Modern shamanism, South American shamanism (varying authors), and United States Native American shamanism (varying sources)."

Isn't that the wrong mythos for halo symoblism? ^^'

[greensh.livejournal.com]

It's a disguise!

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Which bit, the "I'm a shaman *drum drum*" bit or the "I'm an angel *halo polish*" bit? And is it possible to be pure and innocent of motivations and an accomplished intellectual internet troll simultaneously? :P

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I'm a shaman type (drum drum) in the disguise of an angel (halo polish). It makes walking between the worlds easier! It also allows me to sneak up on my troll victims (evil chuckle).

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I am believing there is a difference between a skeptic and a dogmatically minded person. The skeptic rightly questions what they don't have confirmation of yet. Their minds are open to change. The attitudes of the some of the replies to my NFP post came from a place of rigid rejection and bondage to an emotional past. The small "it could be so" was accompanied by the rude and derogatory (ie 'they're (all?) crazy!'). In contrast, IMO the skeptic is capable of outwardly "respecting" others, even if inwardly we're thinking that people are crazy as a bed bug.

[elegy-of-flames.livejournal.com]

Sure, I'll be civil to anyone, though people who can't spell start off with one strike already, but that's just my inner grammar nazi rearing her ugly head. I don't also automatically consider extremely exotic claims to be delusional, I'll mentally tag them with "Hey, not run into it but ya never know" until and unless the person making the claim does something that makes me less inclined to take them seriously, like rampant attention whoring of the kind you normally see from Mary Sue roleplayers :P

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Like the infamous cat, all spirituality is simultaneously a bunch of illogical bullshit and intensely and genuinely real.

Agreed. This is what had me scratching my head when a person proclaimed themselves to be a scientific, logical pagan. After they explained they were a historical, anthropological pagan, I finally understood. I guess they could also be a practicing pagan, but I still wonder how invested a person can be into this without falling a mean spirited dogmatic path.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I have friends who actively intuitive (aka psychic) who would rather not go into large groups/crowds because of their sensitivity. This "gets in the way of their socialization". Doe my friends need psych help? Should they go on medication? I don't think so.

Several weeks ago I was in a restaurant with my lovely gf. We were talking about spirits. We both scanned the establishment as an exercise. I picked up a non-human entity at one side of the room. My gf saw it after I pointed it out. She said it was at an odd "wavelength". I immediately got the impression that the thing did not appreciate being seen, and to call attention to ourselves noticing it was not a good idea. Only after we left the building did I tell me gf that impression. When I think about it I "feel" a pressure indicative of what was there that night. Am I delusion and in need of medical assistance? Hmmmm... LOL.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Yep... people who don't have it turned on don't understand the frustration of not being able to shut it off. To paraphrase what you said, people who don't understand, can't understand. I teach in analogies. I would speak about a person always hearing music and not having the volume dial. As I've shared before, it surprises and grieves me that pagans, of all people, cannot understand this or, at the least, choose not to see it as delusional/sick/need treatment/attention seeking/ego empty/anime frenzied situation. **sigh**

I am quite lucky. We get to do a lot of back-n-forth confirmation of what is seen, felt, sensed. Her background is Craft. She is top notch when it comes to sensing energies. My background is shamanic. I do what I do. For us it is a good combination.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

btw... I keep using your cat icon because it is cat-cute with a hint of bondage. A delightful "in-your-face" combination. (he says as he ties up his own cats - Ebony, Cali, Princess and Ethel Mae - in overly complex Japanese configurations!)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Kinbaku no Neko!

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

"Like the infamous cat, all spirituality is simultaneously a bunch of illogical bullshit and intensely and genuinely real". depending, I would imagine, on what you choose to believe. It always amazed me to see the word "Dogma" used in conjunction with the word "pagan" I had viewed it as an oxymoron.

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. William Shakespeare, "Hamlet.

This is my basic philosophy, I TRY to use it whenever I approach what we called "WAI's" (Wild Ass Ideas) in the military.

[franciscan.livejournal.com]

I think one of the key elements missing is the reality that shamanic practitioners do not do the work alone, but in concert with their helping spirits, which brings it out of a purely scientific understanding. Thought provoking.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

True!!! I am also trained with the Berkley Psychic Institute (http://www.berkeleypsychic.com/) method of healing. A "healing guide" works with the healer by stepping into them and using the healer's hands. Similar method, different path label.

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

I think you're missing the point.

You're assuming that a logical pagan isn't capable of faith. Mutt and Jeff here can't possibly be expecting the moon to get closer. It's a ritual. By it's very definition, it's a symbolic act-- not a literal act.

There's not a single documented event where calling down the moon actually brings the moon closer... but pagans will continue to do the act because it's both symbollicaly and culturally signifigant. The root exists because of Gardnarian works-- so it's relatively new-- but it's a generally an accepted path.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree. You're clearly of the the mindset that "Magick" is a concrete tool. I see it as an act of faith and an aspect of my religion.

My faith is exclusive, however. I've concluded that, because the act is symbolic, the "real" aspect (if it even exists) is secondary. I belive that people making claims that "Magick" is real, and that dragons, faries and elves are also real-- and are reborn in human bodies -- are simply living in a fantasy.

Now... this isn't to say I don't believe in magic. I have faith that it exists-- but I also know that it's very subtle.

Otherkin "shared experience" is simply delusion. How do I know? There's no anthropological evidence to indicate otherwise. There's no evidence at all that it's anything more than a delusion with roots that start when the internet began. What there is, however, is a well documented set of psychological syndromes that explain the entire thing: Shared Psychotic Disorder, Foile A Deux, Schitzoid Personality Disorder, etc.

Oh. I know where you'll logically go next: When does faith, such as mine, stop being faith and become one of the above disorders?

When my faith gets in the way of living in the real. A person who believes in a religion so much that it impacts on their socialization needs help.

And this comes back to my initial quote:

"Brother, you can believe in stones, but don't throw them at me." If one person decides that their delusions are real, I'm really not in any position to say otherwise-- but if they come into my sphere of influence and begin insisting that I believe what they belive I will respond to their delusion with logic and fact.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Mutt and Jeff were a humorous illustration of where thoughts can go when we don't understand and live another person's belief system. Here's where Mutt and Jeff were missing the boat. For those people who LIVE and EXPERIENCE the ritual of 'Drawing Down the Moon', it is possible for the Moon to seem to rest on them, fill them, and be part of them. It is real experience. The Moon is the Goddess and the Goddess is the Moon. While this seems symbolic when written down on paper, it ceases to be symbolic in the ecstatic moment of ritual. The symbolism of ritual is transformed into an ecstatic dance of personal reality. Those attuned to the reality can share that reality in the moment of connection with Divinity. This cannot be put on paper. It can only be experienced.

There is a challenge here. How do we really understand the translation of what we don't understand? How we approach this challenge is up to the individual. This you and I agree on.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree. You're clearly of the mindset that "Magick" is a concrete tool. I see it as an act of faith and an aspect of my religion.

Let's do that - agree to disagree. Between the two of us I thought this was, at its heart, a debate about the nature of magick. I guess I was right. I can say, with integrity, that I never said that magick is a concrete tool. Your interpretation of this indicates that there are lots of interesting debating points that we could go over. Neat stuff. Also old stuff. Let me know if you are ever in the South Carolina area. We'll hash this over a cold brew or two.

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

Same goes for you. Should you find yourself up in the Great White North near Toronto, drop me a line. We've got a massive pagan community here (in comparison to other canadian cities) which is pretty well organized.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Cool! Will do!

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

"You're assuming that a logical pagan isn't capable of faith. Mutt and Jeff here can't possibly be expecting the moon to get closer.There's not a single documented event where calling down the moon actually brings the moon closer..."
.
WTF? this was a STORY....it was used as an comedic ILLUSTRATION.. firstly, as a practicing witch and pagan I would ask you to clarify whether you believe ritually Drawing down the Moon is an actual attempt to MOVE the moon from its orbit?

now on the second comment"

"It's a ritual. By it's very definition, it's a symbolic act-- not a literal act."

again I would ask you to clarify.. do you believe ALL rituals are symbolic?

"The root exists because of Gardnarian works-- so it's relatively new-- but it's a generally an accepted path."

Stonehenge existed long before Gardner and is/was a working astonomical site. Ancient Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians and Druids held rituals commemerating phases of the moon and the Goddesses that they believed were represented or resident within the moon. I would Recommend you read Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon for more anthropological history regarding this in pagan worshop practices. While Gardner may have "borrowed" from Egyptian, OTO and Thelemic rituals, they existed far before him.

Time for a bit of a breather. Breeeeathe.....

[the-caveat.livejournal.com]

I think you need to calm down a little. You're jumping on minor issues that really have little bearing on the argument.

Of course I get the point of the allegory. I undestand that it was supposed to be commedic... but I was also trying to use the same allegory to make my point.

In answer to your question: Yes. I think that ALL ritual is symbolic. When I do a cleansing ritual, I'm not on my hands and knees scrubbing away in the circle (although, that'd likely work).

Instead, I'm doing symbolic acts.

As for my Gardner reference: While I agree that the act of "Drawing down the Moon" might have existed in proto-religions, the form you see in most pagan circles is Gardnarian in nature.

In the 1940s, Gardner (and later Sanders) did indeed to historical research, but where he couldn't find detail, he filled in the gaps using schollarship and intuition. The form that's used today in most Gardnarian trads is his-- an amalgam of guesswork and antrhropological study and likely quite different from the 200AD ritual from Greece.

Re: Time for a bit of a breather. Breeeeathe.....

[wulfwalker.livejournal.com]

As for my Gardner reference: While I agree that the act of "Drawing down the Moon" might have existed in proto-religions, the form you see in most pagan circles is Gardnarian in nature.

I do not understand what you are saying. please elaborate. IME, Gardnerian is one of many pagan paths which use the symbology/ritual of Drawing Down the Moon. I have witnessed Druidic ceremonies that were not at all similar to a "Craft" circle ritual.

Unless your implication is that all paths that use a ritual circle are descended from Gardnerian?

If you do a cleansing ritual for say.. negative energy, if the energy is removed/released than how can it be symbolic?

What does the word "Ritual" mean to you?