Demon Talk

[kokopelle]

My recent question about trickster entities was well answered. Good stuff. The recent thread spoke of a group of minor trouble-making beings (Talkers) that seemed to be separated from a full blown "demon" definition. I'd like to present my understandings and see if anybody can add or subtract from it.


The site http://www.deliriumsrealm.com has the following definition for the word demon:

So, to encompass all of these types of entities on my pages, I am choosing to define "demon" as an entity who meets one or more of the following characteristics (yes, they are vague):
1) Relates in some way to the Judeo-Christian devil
2) Is identified by a prominent demonologist as a demon
3) Relates to the "trickster" archetype defined by CG Jung
4) Is associated with Death or the Underworld
5) Has a destructive side (i.e. kills, drinks blood, causes destruction for fun, etc)
6) Is associated with a destructive force of nature (i.e. Whirlwind)"

As you can see above, the word 'demon' comes with a lot of baggage. I've preferred to use the term "discordant spirit/entity" instead of the word demon. That said, I will continue to use the word demon because it is available.

Tibetan shamans exchanged their blood for practical services by demons. These beings were non-human, and my understanding is that they were not naturally full of malice. I believe that there are many beings on the multiple planes and levels of existence. We exist in this place called the "physical reality". Other realities intersect with our reality. These touch points are at many vibrations. Some touch points are easily seen and some much less easily seen. While there are entities that were formally human, there are naturally a large number of completely non-human entities coming through the touch points.

The behavior of the visiting entities can be foreign to our human norms. This is not unexpected, as the beings are coming from a place that is foreign to our reality. It is a mistake that they operate with the same motivations and limitations of behavior. This can lead to an impression of an entity being evil when their behavior is destructive/harmful to our physical bodies. The replies to my recent blog entry indicated that there can even be a measure of anger/fear from a being brought into our reality against it's will. Demon behavior is not unanticipated if a bigger trans-dimensional view is taken.

An analogy would be if roaches summoned humans. The roaches would be screamed "evil evil evil" as the humans squashed the roaches. The humans would quite content with the morality of killing a household pest. If the human were "summoned" into the roach reality, the response of squashing the roach sorcerers would be understandable. That said, there are beings who seem to take pleasure with the suffering of humans. This could be attributed to the motivation gap between realities. I’ve also heard that there is an amount of jealousy of those who are physical. The other dimension beings, for reasons of their own, choose to exact a "revenge" of sorts on the physical. But then again, perhaps it is not revenge anymore than water gets "revenge" on fire by dousing the flames.

I guess my final questions would be, are there really any entities that are classic "demons"? Has the myth of religion warped this word into something that isn't really usable? Is the word, used by both religion and ceremonial guys, just a handle to hang the behavior of a group of unrelated beings? Is the "evil demon" just a misunderstood being that is wisely avoided?

I would love to hear other's thoughts on this.

Comments

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

I guess my final questions would be, are there really any entities that are classic "demons"?

Can I ask what you think a 'classic demon' consists of?

And as always, I love reading your thoughts. :)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Probably something along the lines of "evil being from X level of Hell". Total evil. Out to be mean and corrupt human beings. Nasty, ugly, and up to no-good. This is how the general culture throws around the word.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

In Vilturj, and indeed in other forms of shamanism I have encountered (such as some aspects of Nyungah Aboriginality in Australia), such demons exist, that are extremely malicious. They are not necessarily here to teach us 'lessons' regarding pain and growth, and they are not necessarily concerned with us as well. Vilturj tells of demons that exist solely to stop the Wolf from catching its kills, this is why we believe the wolf only rarely succeeds at a hunt, and why they struggle to survive the taiga and the forest. But aside from that, I believe in demons that have nothing to do with our growth and purpose, and are simply destructive, chaotic, malicious forces that cannot be tamed or coerced or negotiated with so that we ever truly have the upper hand.

It is easy for me to accept that such demons exist in the Otherworlds, not only because I have encountered, but because I have also met other humans that would fit such a category, and if there are truly malicious humans out there, I see no reason why there should not be truly malicious demons. If that makes any sense.

And now, to bed! :)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I very much appreciate getting an answer that has a shamanic bent. There seems to be little information about "demons" from shaman sources. The majority is from occult/ceremonial/Christian origins.

Many who "play" in the shamanic sandbox would like to think the world is about fluffy animal guides and such. I don't think so. I wonder sometimes though about the foundation of shamanic training in this area. The most I was told was "stay away from the journey animals that show teeth". Maybe we are protected because we don't know how to go to "those other places". I hope so.

I've bumped into one or two things that are unpleasant. (IMO) to think all-is-light-and-love does the realities a disfavor and puts would-be practitioners in a degree of danger.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

We were always taught that in the Otherworlds not to interrupt anything that didn't show interest in you first, no matter how appealing / benevolent / gentle / non-threatening it looked.

And then if you do encounter a creature / spirit / demon, there's basic courtesies that need to be observed, etiquettes of the Otherworld, but they can still do harm if they want and the Otherworlds are a dangerous place. Particularly - I feel - for people who are convinced there is no danger. Lol.

I use 'demon' as a catch-all term for most sentient spirits of the underworld who are not direct animal / god or ancestor spirits. So it also includes 'demons' who are rational, direct, honest beings who - while they are more baser than some of the entities, are still likely to make a fairly honest dealing with you. So when I say 'I met a demon' in the Underworld, it doesn't always mean I encountered someone who just wanted to hurt me.

There is a mandate I've heard, that creatures of the Otherworlds cannot truly 'lie,' so that if you ask them 'do you mean me harm?' they are obliged to indicate that they do. However I don't believe this is the case. There are lying, malicious demons out there that would lead anyone astray. Fortunately, people seem to come across them as often as they come across a truly altruistic / compassionate spirit (which also isn't that often in my experience, since nothing is so black / white in the Otherworlds).

I don't really blame those with a fluffy perspective, Shamanism *is* dangerous, sending your spirit out into the Otherworlds to encounter god-knows-what in the hope that you can find a soul-fragment or something else to grow as a person, gain wisdom, or heal someone else. It's a radical enough concept in contemporary times without adding the 'by the way, there are demons out there who will try possess / kill you, who will bring up your fears and waste your health with them, who will basically try to destroy the integrity of your own souls and body while you try to restore the integrity of others.'

It was years before I did my first unsupervised trip to the Otherworlds, before I always travelled with elders. It's only been in the past three / four years that I have become adept enough to do it on my own, and even then, I've made mistakes, I've been hurt, I've been trapped and tricked. *shrugs* I still think it's worth it. :)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I ask about such things because of personal interest/experience. You make a very good point about angelic beings, and how the good/bad label does not fit well in those realms of power/ability/influence/mojo.

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I've bumped into a few things before. Maybe not a lot compared to others who work in this area, but has been enough to give me a taste of what is out there. I'd rather not puff my chest because of people's privacy and a desire not to "attract attention" to myself right now. I do know that the world of entities is not all fuzzy-fun spirit guides.

I am on a path that will probably have me bumping into more, and I'd like to be better informed. I am tip-toeing up on that world with as much knowledge as possible, ready for that know-how to be turned into wisdom via the experience(s).

[greensh.livejournal.com]

The "newbie" class training glosses over the fact that there is more than just fuzzy-fun. The channeling/shaman journeying/Craft evoking books seem to miss talking about this too.

There are some practical reasons for this. The first is that many people would be scared away from the experience. This may be a good thing, but it hurts the $$$ pockets of those doing the classes (ok... I'm being cynical here). The more probable reason is that the beginners don't know enough to get themselves into trouble.

I will say that this is real stuff and teachers/facilitators should know what the sh*t they're doing so newbies can be pulled away from any over-their-head experiences they may have. I do get upset with some book authors when they have material that can be a loaded gun in reader's hands, but such is life sometimes.

[lupini.livejournal.com]

"I do know that the world of entities is not all fuzzy-fun spirit guides."

:nods:

I'm swinging back towards the opinion that "shamanism" training should be at least slightly difficult to find. Just having the $$ to take a class or read a book shouldn't be the only prereq--there needs to be screening. Learning *about* shamanism is a good thing for everyone, but actually doing it...ehhh, not necessarily.

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

Something that has amused and fascinated me for years is the concept of "demon as good guy, possibly comedian." I admit, I am a Buffy/Angel geek. And those shows changed the whole demon concept by making some demon characters nice, sweet, pleasant, fighting against evil. However, one constant always remained -- the demon, no matter what side it took, lacked a soul and therefore possessed no real automatic ingrained loyalty, morality, sense of life or death, sense of justice, etc. It chose, by its own free will, to side with the "good guys" or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_%28Buffyverse%29
Lorne, in the Angel series, was my favorite example. And then obviously there was Angel and Spike. You would have a whole species of demon that, say, thrived on killing and eating hearts, let's say, but perhaps a few members of that species had decided they could survive without the souless heartless maiming and wanted to be friends with their "food".

One of my favorite novels is a trilogy, "The Black Jewels Trilogy" by Anne Bishop. I would highly recommend it. It is set in a fantasy world of magic, witchcraft, psychic ability, and the astral plane. It features a family of demons as central characters -- Saetan, the High Lord of Hell (Hell just being another place, like the various cities), and his sons Daemon and Lucivar. These demons are men. They have souls. They love. They have sex. In fact, the whole point of the series is Daemon's quest to find his true love, the most powerful human witch in existence. Yet they can also be cruel and heartless and sadistic, killing at a whim. There are also "demon dead" who are technically vampires, with no souls. Both the live demons and the demon dead regularly consume blood, or "yarbarah" and the live demons also eat food. The demons are essential human, except for the demon part.
It's really hard to explain everything. You should just go buy the trilogy, and its sequel, "Dreams Made Flesh" which is a collection of novellas based off that world. *hint hint*